In our last post, we alluded to the fact that some of the people who enthusiastically gathered around us in Washington Square Park were a little too enthusiastic. Overall our experience in the park was joyful and wonderful…in particular for the first hour and the last hour we were pretty much left alone and not bothered by anyone…but it was marred at the midpoint by some unfortunate behavior on the part of a handful of guys who didn’t seem to care how uncomfortable they made us if it meant getting close to a topless girl. Afterwards, one of our members asked if she could write a few words about how she feels on this subject and share them here. Of course we said yes. The floor is hers:
* * *
We meet for fun, mostly. We don’t like tan lines or being too hot on a summer day, enviously eyeing cool and carefree topless men. We do like books, bodies of all shapes and sizes, and hanging out. When people ask what we’re doing and why, we typically answer in these pretty simple terms: it’s fun, y’all.
And it should be fun. Law—and increasingly, popular opinion—support the idea that the female body is not particularly more obscene than its male counterpart, and our group rarely meets with negative attention (occasional stink-eye aside). An excellent and fantastically photogenic case in point:
People of both genders are often pleased to see us, and for every stink-eye there are at least two people (especially old ladies walking their dogs!) who voice support and excitement.
But for every two of those there’s someone—guys, sorry, but I mean a someone of the male gender—whose support is maybe just a little too enthusiastic.
Men who sit just a little too close. Men who lurk in nearby bushes (that has to be uncomfortable, dude). Men who snap incessant pictures even when asked to stop. Men who approach to say “Any chance of a date?”—that’s verbatim, by the way.
Honestly? It’s guys like this that make me (personally, mind—I speak for no one else) want to go topless in public. Because it does make me uncomfortable and sometimes angry. And I don’t think that’s right. Like most women, I have a pretty thick skin when it comes to catcalls; it takes a special something extra to make my skin crawl.
I know the reason most women would never feel comfortable taking their top off in the park—and, sadly, the reason many women don’t even feel comfortable walking down the street in something revealing as a tank top—are these men with that special something extra, which, I assume, is something somewhere between ignorance and misogyny.
I don’t want that type of man to be in control of what I do.
So we don’t let this type of harassment ruin our day. We have our supporters, each other, books and sunshine to counteract it, so, hey, creepy guy, fuck off—we’re just here having fun.
* * *
So…what’s “too enthusiastic”? Too enthusiastic is doing shit you’d never in a million years do if we had shirts on, and that you would never in a billion years do to a guy you don’t know, whether or not he had his shirt off. It’s stuff that violates the universally comprehended rules of common courtesy and personal space. Yes, we’re out in public, and yes, we’re doing something you don’t see every day, so sure, you might feel like snapping a picture to remember it by or to show your friends. That’s fine. You can be friendly, like this guy…
…polite, respectful, and after a brief hello, gone.
Just don’t be a creep. It’s really not that hard.
You guys are awesome. I’ve corresponded with one of you (aa), so I hope you know I’m coming from a safe place. I’m glad that you can realistically deal with the creepiness of my gender and still have a positive outlook.
Thanks. Please don’t misunderstand, it’s not your gender as a whole that’s creepy; it’s just a few unfortunate representatives of your gender who are either clueless or hostile or just profoundly selfish and choose to gratify themselves at the expense of the women around them. Some afternoons we don’t meet even one of these guys; sometimes we find ourselves with several clustering around us.
I think many (if not most) Y-chromosome carriers are creeped out by these characters, too. Thankfully there aren’t too many of them.
This is a very good post. The pics are also excellent.
Well said, and more power to you.
Very well said and that is the problem with Men. Men seem to equality nudity with sex and can’t seem to separate the two. Which is why when it comes to topless women, they seem to think that being topless equals sex. Which is why Men will always have that problem.
Um, stereotyping a little here, perhaps?
It’s because it’s what normal in America for a guy when he sees a girl that is topless. Guys in America have a hard time with separating nudity with sex. The problem with that is, guys in America can’t seem to separate sex with nudity, and it’s something they have been brought up and raised with
“A guy” does not equal “all guys” or even “most guys.” If by “Men” you mean all guys, you’re wrong. The original post with its last image and commentary shows that, as does the original post, which made a point of saying that most people, including, apparently, guys, were fine with the group’s toplessness. (They may even have approved of what the women were reading.)
It’s your stereotyping I’m objecting to.I’m not denying the existence of creepy guy; a woman doesn’t have to be topless to experience that. Nor am I denying that for many people in the U.S. nudity equals sex. It’s true. It’s also true that most of the hitting on women is by (straight) men, although by no means all of it, as your lesbian and trans friends will tell you.
So, easy on the stereotypes, OK? Beat up on creepy guy? Go for it. Assume all guys are creeps? Please.
Except that that’s not true — it’s NOT normal for a guy to behave this way when he sees a girl that is topless, the proof being that most guys don’t do it. It is abnormal, and I think that everyone who sees this behavior winces a little inwardly and wishes it would stop, but no one wants to get involved or tell the clod doing it to go away. We’re all too polite to make a scene, and the clod takes advantage of that squeamishness. I suppose we just need to be firmer and faster to say, “I’m sorry, you’re making us uncomfortable, please leave us alone.”
except the problem is that men are raised from birth to sexualize women and when they see a woman that is topless. They see an invitation. Which is why most men in America can’t seem to separate nudism/topless and sex. It’s why when men see a woman topless, it’s like eye candy for them. But when another guy has his manboobs out, it’s like they are creeped out. It just shows in a man’s word, they are creeped out by manboobs but sexualize female breast. What men don’t realize, that they have the same breast tissue that women have and you wonder why Men are catching up to women in Breast Cancer cases.
“Men” to “most men” is a little progress, although still exaggerated, especially the idea that men can’t help themselves. They can.
I think there are two distinct elements to this topic. One is the obsession in the U.S. with boobs, and nudity and sex. If there’s any meaning to the term “society” these days, the overwhelming consensus among movie and TV producers, for example, is that American society will tolerate 45 people getting shot in the head, but won’t tolerate a single bare breast. Maybe a well-formed butt or two, often a male one, maybe. So, yeah, there’s an obsession with nudity and a frequent, but not universal, equating of nudity (predominantly female, but male, too) with sex.
As others have pointed out, though, today it’s breasts and nudity in general, when decades ago it was how much ankle was showing. So it’s pretty likely that things will continue to change, albeit slowly. In any event, it’s behavior that matters, not thoughts. After all, that’s why manners were invented. And it’s never safe to operate solely on assumptions or stereotypes, especially inaccurate ones.
As for man boobs, eek! Point taken. (If your point is that what we think of particular parts of human anatomy is a cultural construct, not anything innate.)
Yet the problem still is that men still have the issue that they can’t seem to separate Nudism/Topless to sex. Which is why some men on here can’t seem to understand because they were brought up and raised to see female breast as sex objects and not a body part.
I agree Joe.. just alittle. I hate the stereotyping crap.
I for one do not link the two togther.. If a woman wants to make a man look at her breasts she will make them up in a way to attract attention to them. But other then that, its another body part to me.. Its really not fair that I am pulled into the same boat because some guys could not grow out of their little boy brains and get over the fact that women have breasts… get over it, grow up.. I for one was brought up to respect women in every way.. Sorry nicky but your false, I was not raised to look at women as objects.. you must have a very sexist house hold.. and because of people like you I get bashed for being a guy!!!
Not much more needs to be said in response to you Nicky, as joebondibeach covered it pretty well, however I do want to say that your generalized viewpoint towards men (or even just American men) is as bad as the viewpoint those creepers clearly have towards women.
It’s not a problem with “Men,” with a capital M. Saying that takes responsibility off the shoulders of the particular men who are choosing to behave badly when they could (and the vast majority of the other men around them do) behave better. It’s a problem with certain specific men who allow their excitement to override their empathy. It’s like they really like ice cream and they’re walking down the street and see you coming the other way with an ice cream cone in your hand, and for some insane reason they suddenly decide that it’s okay for them to run over and take a lick of your cone for themselves. What kind of person would do that? Not “all men,” not “all hungry men,” not “all men who love ice cream.” It would be one particular asshole. And that’s what it is in the cases we described.
Add to that list: You’re “too enthusiastic” if it’s behavior you’d never tolerate if a total stranger acted that way towards your girlfriend, your wife or your sister.
It’s not out of the question that attitudes can gradually change for the better … your one-out-of-three ratio should eventually improve. In Germany and Holland, for instance, bystanders (both male and female) will confront guys behaving in socially unacceptable ways and will either clue them in or chase them off.
We didn’t check the math in our example all that precisely. It’s actually a lot better than one-out-of-three. There were probably a hundred men who saw us in the park, and only maybe five or six who acted badly. That was enough to make us uncomfortable and annoyed (ever had five or six cellphone cameras surrounding you?), but 5 pr 6 percent is a lot better than 33%.
There is always that 10% that gives men a bad rap.
some men are pigs some are princes
Reblogged this on Get Naked, Get Awesome and commented:
This excellent piece is something very relevant to many of the things I blog about. While female public topfreedom and naturism aren’t always the same thing, the behaviour of some males towards topless women is not unlike the way some men act towards women taking part in events like the World Naked Bike Ride, and also has similarities to the way female naturists sometimes get treated by males on the Internet. Well worth a read!
Well written, though I might have been tempted to be more blunt. Though not quite the same, I have a regular sauna at a place where no clothes are worn. There are two places in London that afford that opportunity for women and men, one where almost everyone is polite and courteous, the other where there are far too many men similar to the creepy guy.
Dan points out the attitude in Germany and Holland, which the same is as I find on beaches in the south of France. Not that clueless or creepy men are that common there.
Maybe it’s just me, but I would feel way too skeevy taking a picture of a topless woman I didn’t know really well.
I will say though, that I think a few seconds of stunned “deer caught in headlights” staring (it’s not every day you see an attractive group of women frolicking topless in a NYC park) is perfectly acceptable (from a respectful distance of course), but after that it’s time to continue about ones business. Beyond that however, one begins to enter creeper territory.
But again, maybe that’s just me.
Women have had to put up with this (and worse) since at least the time they raised their hems above their ankles. It seems you have the right attitude. Be firm but polite and photograph the unwelcome photographers telling them you will publish the photographs on the internet.
Thank-you sooo much for this. It was really, really, well said!
Reposted on internationalyn.org!
Brava and very well said. The nude beach has become one of my favorite places to go, the feeling of liberation and playfulness is like none other. As you described, I mostly feel very comfortable in my skin, but now and again, the difference between a look and a leer rears its ugly head. Thanks for articulating this issue so well.
When female flesh is exposed, some guys just can’t restrain themselves.
No one can change that. But, you can avoid the areas where the problem is more pervasive and keep your guy friends close by as a creep-repellant.
If I had my way, every lady on the planet would be free to frolic naked wherever she wanted legally and without harassment. Alas, we’re not living in that world.
That’s simply not true. It’s not that some guys just CAN’T restrain themselves–if that were true, it would absolve them of responsibility for their actions, and in fact would transfer responsibility for their behavior to the women who “made them” behave that way, by “exposing” their “female flesh.” On the contrary, it’s that some guys just DON’T restrain themselves, even though they easily could. And the responsibility for that lies squarely with them, not us. It’s like the ice cream example I offered elsewhere on this page. If I’m walking in your direction licking an ice cream cone, you don’t just run over and take a lick — that would be grossly inappropriate. And if you DO, it’s not my fault for carrying such a delicious-looking ice cream cone around on a hot day — it’s your fault for being a poorly socialized asshole with impulse-control issues.
Give a hundred guys an opportunity to behave inappropriately, you can expect a handful will.
That’s predictable and you have the option to plan accordingly, which doesn’t absolve the inappropriate guys from responsibility for their actions.
I have been a fan of your adventures from the beginning. I live in Utah. A place that would never tolerate the public display of a female topless. That said, I completely agree with the comments posted about the ‘creeps’ who are so rude as to invade your space. I find your group refreshing and look forward to each new post. Please do not allow a few low life fools discourage or otherwise restrict your freedom. I am a 63 y.o. male. I have enjoyed being nude all my life. It is something so special, no explanation can be adequate.
Keep up the good work. I believe you are changing the country with your activism. I’m so glad you are so passionate about body freedom. I wish you the very best!
To avoid areas is to give in to oppression
You might want to try to have some sympathy for those poor creeps. After all,you’re killing them. The more you lovely ladies do your thing and the more you spread your message that topfreedom is the only right and fair course…the more common it becomes. The more common and less unusual it becomes,the less an object of erotic fascination a stranger’s female breast becomes. How many men do you suppose went totally loco at the sight of a bare knee when short shorts and miniskirts came to be 50 or 60 years ago? Well,have you ever met a ‘knee fetishist’? Probably not,because the sight is as common as clouds. You pioneers are doing the same thing for the breast and,in so doing,moving us ALL forward a bit on the maturity scale. Thanks 🙂
I am reminded of the line from THE MIKADO (1885), where Katisha proclaims, “I have a left shoulder-blade that is a miracle of
loveliness. People come miles to see it. My right elbow has a fascination that few can resist.” Ah, for the days when women (and for that matter men) remained covered from ankle to throat! How precious those halcyon days of modesty!
This. The creeps are the symptom more than the disease; as long as America keeps forcing everyone to hide any given thing, that thing will be an obsession that creates junkies. The same can [sort of] be said about drugs or any other controlled substance; the fact that it’s forbidden makes some want it even more, and when they do get it, the pent-up excitement and frustration drives them deep into ‘creep’ or ‘junkie’ territory. If toplessness were commonplace (or nudity, for that matter), it wouldn’t be seen as sexual, and the creeps would largely cease to exist. The ones who would still be there are the same folks who are creeps to fully covered women already; sure, they’re out there, but thankfully they’re not very common.
Notice the guys acting creepy are wearing shirts?
Eh. Not always. The week before, we had a creepy guy pull his shirt off, sit down beside us, and basically refuse to leave even after we told him he needed to go.
Too bad there are always a couple of wankers around who spoil it for everyone else.
The funny thing is, one summer I spent every weekend at a nudist campground with a girlfriend who had a site there, and quite often she would come up to me and say, “Did you notice so-and-so checking out your junk?” And I was always oblivious. I guess I wasn’t paying attention because I wouldn’t expect women to be that way toward guys!
Brian, checking out? Fine. Looking? Fine. Smiling? Sure. Leering? No. Uncool. And, its not your junk! Its your package! 🙂 We all look!
Well, junk was my girlfriend’s term. And I’ve never cared who looks….” a cat may look at a king…” as long as there’s no unwanted contact, and I never had that happen 🙂
🙂 It’s good to know the feeling is mutual.
I believe the most important point raised above is:
“I don’t want that type of man to be in control of what I do.”
I hope you all have the courage to not let them!
I recently took part in the World Naked Bike Ride in Brighton. As we rode, the streets were lined with walls of cameras. Mostly mobile phone cameras held by happy people capturing the atmosphere, but other, long-lensed cameras twitched as they searched for breasts in the crowd of cyclists. The saddest, most miserable looking people were those who had come to the changing and rest areas with their video cameras and long-lenses, hoping to take close-ups whenever a girl inadvertently revealed more than they had intended to. These unsmiling folk were without social graces, not asking permission to take portraits, nor stopping when asked to. I started taking photographs of them: they were not so keen on that. These joyless people were, without exception, male.
I spoke to a WNBR participant in London and exactly the same happened there. He was chatting to a (male) friend when suddenly a number of men with cameras appeared, as a young woman was next to them both.
There were a large number of cameramen on a bank by the finish line too.
Taking photos of these men seems a good way to try to discourage them.
I get it – You rode naked in Brighton to “get attention” – and perhaps for fun and to promote good clean nudism. What I don’t understand is why you would be concerned with people taking picture. Isn’t that the attention you were looking for? If there is nothing wrong or dirty about being nude in public then there certainly can not be anything wrong with others taking pictures of what ever part of the body that is exposed. I’ll bet there were a few woman taking pictures of you too. I’ll also make a side bet that had no one shown up to watch you ride it would not have been much of an event. After all you could have chosen to ride naked on a far away country road.
I am a 69 y. o. life long nudist and applaud your naked ride but stay cool with the results of “getting what you asked for”.
I am also a lifelong naturist…and I don’t think you get it!
Hey,
I am firmly back in NYC after a vacation.
Are you all ready to come out to Queens?
I know of a few places you might like to hang out and read pulp.
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 23:32:41 +0000 To: robertazo@hotmail.com
No current plans to go to Queens, though you never know.
Just want to voice support here.
I will add a note of caution. Public fountains are not public pools. They aren’t filtered. They aren’t chlorinated. Be careful swimming in public fountains, especially if mothers are letting very small children in diapers play in the fountain as well. Think about it. That child could have been in the fountain the day before even. Giardia is not fun.
Yes, and walking barefoot on the grass can probably hurt us in some way, too. And exposing our skin to the sun can lead to carcinoma, and buttery pastry can precede diabetes, and on and on. Thank you for your concern. We didn’t swim in the fountain, we splashed about for a very brief time, cooled off, and then came out. No adverse symptoms yet and it’s been a few weeks. I think we’ll live.
Yall are heroes. I truly hope that one day what you do will be more the norm than not, not that everyone needs to go topless, but that one day every woman should be comfortable exercising that option without fear of harrassment. It seems to me the only way that it will ever happen is for this nonsexual nudity to be normalized.
Thank you.
Personally I don’t care where you choose to bare your breasts. I’m a man and quite frankly… yawn. But I have to take issue with one section of this post: “So…what’s “too enthusiastic”? Too enthusiastic is doing shit you’d never in a million years do if we had shirts on, and that you would never in a billion years do to a guy you don’t know, whether or not he had his shirt off. It’s stuff that violates the universally comprehended rules of common courtesy and personal space.” How is taking more than just one snapshot of your group any different than taking multiple photos of anyone else doing something you don’t see every day in New York?”
I’m sorry but if you are doing something that is not a commonly seen thing in NYC you have to expect a lot of people to take a lot of photos of you. If you walk around with a ferret on your head a lot of people are going to take a lot of photos of you no matter how much you want to fight for the rights of ferret owners in NYC. And if you walk around with your boobs on display, sorry, but many men are sexually turned on by the site of your mammary glands. You’re not going to change that biological reaction. Most men are pigs and most will act like it no matter how much want to change society’s view on female breasts. They can’t control themselves because it’s a biological reaction. Sorry.
“Taking more than just one photo” can mean taking two photos, from a respectful distance, or it can mean standing literally 9 inches away, peering down at a woman trying to read a book, and snapping photo after photo after photo, and when asked politely if maybe you’ve taken enough, saying, “I want to try out all my filters.” It’s fine to take two photos; it’s fine to take three. It might even be fine to take half a dozen, if you do it politely. It’s not fine to be an asshole.
And it’s simply bullshit that men “can’t control themselves because it’s a biological reaction.” Men on the beach in Spain and France are still men, biologically speaking, and they’re around bare-breasted women all the time. You don’t see them running for their cameras each time a new pair makes an appearance. Men at the 150-year-old co-ed nude baths in Germany use the facilities side by side with naked women, and if they got any “biological reactions” it would be instantly noticeable — they rarely do, and if they do, they don’t use it as an excuse to run over and bother you. Responding like frat boys to the sight of a woman’s bare breasts is not a biological matter, it’s a cultural one. And even if it were biological, you are the master of your biology and capable of self control. If you love ice cream and see me come down the street eating an ice cream cone, even if you’re hungry, even if you start salivating, you don’t run up to me and make licking gestures and stare hungrily from inches away. You just don’t, unless you’re deranged. We have every right to expect you to exercise a similar degree of self-control, and demonstrate a similar amount of self-respect, when exposed to the sight of bare breasts.
I don’t disagree with you. I go to a clothing optional beach here in the NYC area so I’m completely desensitized to nudity. But what you do need to acknowledge is that while most of those Spanish and German men may be able to appear nonchalant in the presence of completely naked women mere yards away from them, on the inside the frat boy’s mind is still racing. I wish you luck in changing that.
We’re not talking about what’s going on inside their minds, we’re talking about what they do. You wrote, “Most men are pigs and most will act like it…They can’t control themselves.” That’s false. They can control themselves, and many (most) men do control themselves, just like you say you do when you go to the nude beach. It’s fine for guys to look, and for them to enjoy what they see, and if they get a sexual charge out of it, that’s fine too (though I suspect even that interior thrill will start to vanish after the fifty-thousandth time they see a woman’s chest). All we’re saying is that they should behave like decent, empathetic human beings. And the fact that most men do is all the evidence we need that the impulse to behave dickishly is not an uncontrollable urge common to all men.
Complaining about men taking too many pictures of topless women is like a celebrity complaining about too much paparazzi at a red carpet film premiere they’re attending. If you do something that draws a lot of attention you should be mentally prepared to deal with it and tune it out. The irony of your complaint is that you’re calling these men misogynists, but it is the women bystanders who are the more likely of the two genders to direct any kind of negative energy towards you. Guys who take too many pictures or hit on you are not by definition misogynists, nor is this type of behavior wholly unexpected in a park in nyc. Let’s not forget that you’re not actually on a topless beach.
It’s not really the number of photos that’s the main issue, it’s the intrusiveness or rudeness of the behavior. If someone took a dozen photos but did it quietly, from a respectful distance, we’d probably never even notice. But walking up to us and snapping away while standing over us at a distance of 2 feet is obnoxious. If you wouldn’t do it on a beach, you shouldn’t do it in a park either.
We’re not celebrities and we’re not on a red carpet; we’re ordinary women who are relaxing in the park the same as you, with our shirts off the same as you. We understand that people aren’t used to seeing it and that it will draw people’s attention, but once your attention is drawn you have a choice between acting like a gawping, drooling, leering idiot and acting like a grown-up, respectful fellow human being. The vast majority of men who see us are able to (and choose to) follow the latter path. It’s not unreasonable for us to hope for.
Exactamundo.
What an excellent idea and your images are just stunning. Not sure if your idea could take off here in Scotland, a bit too chilly 🙂 Keep up the good work in changing people’s viewpoint on nudity and continue to have fun 🙂
great advice for males on the proper etiquette.
Let me start by saying I have no issue with women being topless anywhere they choose to be. Its a free county (well mostly anyway) and women should have the same rights as men in all things.
But I have to say with the exception of the “even after being asked to stop” part, this article is naive and hypocritical.
You mention how uncomfortable the men make you by their actions, yet completely ignore how uncomfortable you make others by being topless. How is your right to not be made to feel uncomfortable any more valid than theirs?
If your being topless should be just as normal as any other daily activity or at least just as normal as a man being topless, then why shouldn’t you be asked for a date? Why is it such a big deal that you were asked while you were topless? Men and women alike can be very awkward at times particularly when asking an attractive person of the opposite sex for a date regardless of how they are dressed. Men AND women alike also tend to stare at things they find to be different whether it be beautiful, ugly, gross, etc. you only have to drive by an accident on the highway once to know that.
Everything you said in this article could easily have happened while you were fully clothed, so why make such a big deal about the fact that you happen to be topless at the time. Men and women alike can and will be awkward in unfamiliar situations, by making a big deal about it yourself, you are feeding into the very thing you are protesting or trying to change.
We’re not complaining about being asked out for a date, and we’re not complaining about people taking notice when they see us. As you say, those are normal, understandable things people might reasonably do. We’re complaining about behavior that would be just as rude and intrusive and unpleasant regardless of whether we were topless or not, and that any reasonable person would dislike, man or woman, naked or clothed. We’re talking about people standing 3 feet away and staring open-mouthed, not for 10 seconds but 20 minutes. We’re talking about people pulling up a folding chair to within a few feet and sitting down and just openly staring at us, hungrily, without stopping. We’re not talking about someone snapping one cell phone photo from a respectful distance to show his friends back home, or to memorialize the sight for his own pleasure. We’re talking about someone walking right up to us, cell phone or iPad in hand, and snapping, snapping, snapping, and when asked politely if he could please stop bothering us, saying, “I want to try another filter.” And so on. You’re right that some people find the sight of topless women intrusive and unwelcome, and while we think they’re unreasonable to attempt to impose their views on us, if they want to complain about what we do, they’re welcome to do so. But the behavior we’re complaining about is behavior NO ONE would like, and that basically everyone would agree was inappropriate. Hell, even the men who do it to us feel it’s unpleasant when we turn the tables on them and (for instance) start snapping exactly the same sort of photos of them. (One had the gall to shout at us, “You can’t do that! You can’t take my picture!”)
The sort of behavior we describe could, you’re right, take place whether or not we happened to be topless at the time — and it would be equally deserving of condemnation either way. So, we condemned it. It’s as simple as that.
Ahhhhh! To be young and stupid again….not! I’ve been naked much of my life and it never ceases to amaze me how some people have such a problem with being without clothes. As one of my favorite t-shirts says: “If it were perfectly natural to be naked, we’d have been born that way.” 🙂
Keep on with the good living! We’ll change the world, yet!!